Photo courtesy of MMAWeekly.com
By Jesse Holland
I remember ordering UFC 61: Bitter Rivals and telling a friend how excited I was to see Andrei Arlovski and Tim Sylvia duke it out to finally see (once and for all) who was the top heavyweight in the UFC.
Like most friends who have no concept of how exciting this sport can be, he nodded politely and feigned interest until he was rescued by our unconversant waitress who was about as interested in getting me another Mr. Pibb as my friend was about hearing me describe a bicep slicer.
Now I can’t imagine how hard I might have laughed had he told me that a retired Randy Couture would once again become the UFC heavyweight champion.
Yet here we are almost a year later and “The Natural” is in fact king of the heavyweights.
I shopped this scenario around to some of my colleagues and the prevailing thought has been “What a difference a year makes.”
While that may be true, there are times when a single fight, possibly even a single punch can alter the course of history.
With that in mind, I present to you three fights that (almost) changed the world of MMA.
Tim Sylvia vs Andrei Arlovski, UFC 59: Reality Check
The origin:
By the end of 2005 Andrei Arlovski had pretty much cleared out the heavyweight division. To call his bout against Paul Buentello a “Main Event” was so much of a stretch I think I recall seeing dried corn syrup on one of the promotional posters.
This is by no means a knock on Arlovski. The heavyweight division was laughably anemic and the usually durable Buentello was asleep in fifteen seconds.
When Frank Mir went Evel Knievel and turned his leg into peanut brittle, it left the UFC little choice but to rematch “The Pitbull” with Tim Sylvia, a man he already bested (in dominating fashion) back at UFC 51.
Like Arlovski, Sylvia was running out of opponents. Although most fans were forgiving enough to accept the rematch, very few (if any) expected such a dramatic turn of events.
The fight:
Not unlike their first encounter, Arlovski came out looking confident and aggressive. After a few brief exchanges, Sylvia was dropped with a devastating right. What looked like a foregone conclusion was anything but.
After flopping around for a few seconds Sylvia (to his credit) made it back to his feet. An overzealous Arlovski rushed in for the kill and instead ate a perfectly placed uppercut that sent him, and his legions of fans, directly to the floor.
Sylvia pounced and it was goodnight Irene.
The significance:
I remember seeing Sylvia hit the floor and thinking that the fight was over. And had Arlovski been a little less reckless, it might have been.
Had Arlovski won, we may never have witnessed the return of “The Natural” to the ranks of heavyweight.
It was after all, the holes in Sylvia’s game that lured him back (that and a nice fat paycheck from the boys in accounting).
Randy Couture told the world that he knew exactly how to beat the tepid “Maine-iac”, and he came out of retirement to do just that.
But if Arlovski was champ, could we assume he would have followed the path of Sylvia and faced Jeff Monson? And would Sylvia have battled Mauricio Cruz and Fabricio Werdum?
Would Arlovski as champ have put Cro Cop on the fast track to the title instead of building up momentum against Sanchez and Gonzaga?
None can say. But good, bad or indifferent, I’m sure glad that Randy’s back. Even if it is just a curtain call.
Matt Hughes vs. Frank Trigg, UFC 52: Couture vs. Liddell 2
The origin:
Much like Arlovski, Hughes was set to face an opponent he’d already owned in their first encounter. With Penn missing in action and St. Pierre still wet behind the ears, Hughes was expected to carry the torch for quite some time.
Take nothing away from Trigg: Aside from getting choked out by Hughes at UFC 45, Trigg had only one other loss in fourteen professional fights.
In addition, Trigg had two easy first round victories over Dennis Hallman, the man who twice defeated Hughes with relative ease.
And Trigg knew how to get under Matt’s skin.
He dismissed the first loss to Hughes, attributing his poor performance-not Hughes dominance as the main factor. To quote “Twinkle Toes:”
“I gave him my back three times. It took him to the third time to finally take it.”
Not content with just verbal abuse, Trigg also planted a little kiss during the staredown-which may or may not have given him a psychological edge (but it certainly gave him a hard shove from Hughes).
The fight:
Early in the first round Hughes was throwing jabs and looking for the shoot. He closed the gap and Trigg tied him up. Hughes pushed him to the fence and Trigg threw a knee that went straight into Hughes groin. Matt buckled for a moment and staggered backwards, writhing in pain.
Hughes made a weak gesture towards referee Mario Yamasaki (who was either out of position or asleep at the wheel) but the unintentional foul went unnoticed and Hughes had no reprieve.
Trigg was not about to look a gift horse in the mouth as he cracked Hughes with a straight left that sent him crumpling to the canvas. Trigg mounted and began dropping bombs and the fight was seconds away from being stopped.
Somehow Hughes managed to weather the storm but had no choice except to give up his back. Trigg had the rear naked choke but once again couldn’t seal the deal and what happened next is perhaps the greatest comeback in UFC history.
Hughes rolled right, scooped up a bewildered Trigg, carried him across the Octagon and slammed him on his back. A few hard elbows forced Trigg to roll to his belly and Hughes finished him for the second time with a rear naked choke.
The significance:
After several replays, I can say that a stoppage would not have been unjustified. Hughes was in a world of trouble and took a few unanswered blows. There have certainly been earlier stoppages in the UFC and Hughes was hanging on by a thread.
A Trigg victory could have quite possibly made Georges St. Pierre a welterweight champion a year before his time.
Trigg’s first fight after Hughes was against St. Pierre. I don’t think that would have changed unless the nature of the win (the groin shot) was played up to hype an immediate rematch.
Karo was next in line against Hughes (which eventually became Riggs after an injury), and since Hughes already faced GSP prior to Trigg, it would have probably been too soon to face him again.
I don’t want to get on Trigg too much about the fight against GSP, but if he were holding the belt, it would have been quickly relinquished.
I don’t remember the exact time of stoppage, but it was such an ass kicking that Trigg made Kenny Stevens look like William the Conqueror.
But how would this scenario have affected the cash dump on the return of Royce Gracie? I find it hard to believe either party would have been interested (at that time) if it was anyone other than Hughes.
And what about the return of BJ Penn? Or the influx of TUF finalists?
Murky waters indeed …
Stephan Bonnar vs. Bobby Southworth, The Ultimate Fighter
The origin:
It may be hard to believe that an exhibition bout could potentially rewrite history, but in retrospect it almost did. The UFC and SpikeTV were testing the waters with a reality show that pitted sixteen MMA fighters against one another with the finalists facing off at a live event later in the year.
At the time of concept (and even through filming), the UFC brass had no idea how the show would be received. It’s risky business to try and promote exhibition fights with fighters that no one has ever heard of in a sport that is still evolving itself.
Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on who you ask), the personalities were able to add a human element to the series, and viewers found themselves curiously addicted.
It was also an easy way to introduce cheapskates and naysayers to a work-in-progress without it costing them forty bucks. It was a recipe for success, but so much of that had to do with the coronation of Forrest Griffin after his war with Stephan Bonnar at the TUF finale.
The fight:
Bobby Southworth had been around the block prior to his stint on TUF, and he looked like an early favorite after his second round KO of Lodune Sincaid on episode three.
Bonnar however was no pushover. In addition to being a former Golden Gloves boxer in Chicago, he trained Brazilian jiu-jitsu under Carlson Gracie.
The fight itself took awhile to get going but once underway things were pretty much even. Bonnar took one on the chin in round two but was able to recover and seemed to be pushing the pace for most of the fight.
With the bout only lasting two rounds it was very difficult to identify a clear-cut winner. The judges awarded Bonnar the split-decision but it could have easily gone the other way.
Always humble in defeat, Southworth went on a tirade that made The Great Santini look like Bob “Happy Trees” Ross.
The significance:
Without question the Griffin/Bonnar fight was a critical moment in UFC history. That battle did more than just galvanize a passive audience; it legitimized the cast of fighters from The Ultimate Fighter and added a much-needed level of credibility to the reality series.
Would there be a Season six without Griffin/Bonnar? Would the financial capability to puchase PRIDE exist without Griffin/Bonnar? That might seem like a stretch, but compare the pay-per-view buys a year before and a year after the TUF finale. Who knows where we might be.
Yet none of it would be possible without a certain variable: Stephan Bonnar. Imagine if the Southworth decision went the other way (which it easily could have)?
If so, perhaps we would have seen Mike Swick against Southworth in episode 12. Swick would have won easily (because it’s my article and I say so) and the finale would have been Mike Swick vs. Forrest Griffin.
A great fight in its own right, but would it have been the war that was Griffin/Bonnar? What direction the careers of Griffin, Bonnar, Southworth and Swick would have taken has its usual “what ifs”, but the significance of Griffin/Bonnar as it relates to a turning point in the history of the UFC cannot be denied.
Without it, I might not even have a website for which to write.
Honorable mention:
Diego Sanchez vs. Josh Koscheck: The Ultimate Fighter
Sanchez won a close split-decision, but it could have just as easily gone to Koscheck. Imagine if Diego was sent home after episode 12? No question he would have lost a lot of the momentum his perfect record brought him. Without it, his entire shtick seems even more obnoxious and megalomaniacal. Would we have seen Koscheck vs. Parisyan?
Rich Franklin vs. David Loiseau: UFC 58: USA vs. Canada
While Franklin dominated the entire five rounds, Loiseau landed a huge left hook in the third round that sent “Ace” to the canvas. Loiseau mounted but couldn’t finish him off. If he had, it’s hard to say where the debut of Anderson Silva would have fit. Franklin took seven months off to heal his injuries and in the interim we might have seen Loiseau face Chris Leben. Maybe Silva/Marquardt a year early?
BJ Penn vs. Jens Pulver: UFC 35: Throwdown
Penn had an absolutely bone-crunching armbar locked in on “Little Evil”. The only problem was it came at the end of round two. A few seconds earlier, and Penn would have ended it. How would that have affected his decision to move up in weight? Maybe he would have never defeated Matt Hughes at UFC 46. That means that The Ultimate Fighter season five would have featured different coaches. Liddell vs. Jackson? If only.
Got another one? Add it to our list in the comments section below.
65 Comments »
Damn Jesse, another great write up. Gotta love your subtle lil cracks aswell.
Only fight you need to add to that list is the one that changed the UFC. Bonnar - Griffin, without this fight, the UFC would not be on top of Pride and owning the world of MMA right now. That fight to me changed MMA like the playstation changed video gaming, the mustang changed cars, and bill gates changed computers.
You must be kidding. Penn-Pulver 1 might make it into my honorable mention fights too, but the rest … *yuck*. Fights that (almost) changed the MMA world are fights where giants clashed. The only fighter in your list who would be considered top of the foodchain (at one point in time at least) is Matt Hughes.
[quote comment=”112031″]You must be kidding. Penn-Pulver 1 might make it into my honorable mention fights too, but the rest … *yuck*. Fights that (almost) changed the MMA world are fights where giants clashed. The only fighter in your list who would be considered top of the foodchain (at one point in time at least) is Matt Hughes.[/quote]
Not really. He is saying fights that would have had big repercussions down the line and it’s a reasonable assumption.
What about Yushin Okami vs Rich Franklin, if this fight had gone the other way. Would Yushin be fighting for Silva for the title or would UFC do some trickery to give another favorite a title shot. Yushin would probably have won if it went a round or two more but it didn’t. Would have Rich’s fate been sealed to being a top contender from then on, no more glory. The reason being there are not any champions in the ufc of eastern decent and that would expand its market base. Wouldn’t it.
[quote post=”2822″]Fights that (almost) changed the MMA world are fights where giants clashed.[/quote]
Such as?
I think you’re missing the point. I don’t think these need to be “high profile” blockbuster fights. He’s talking about a punch here, or a second there that could have altered an entire chain of events.
If the Queen had balls, she would be King.
Regardless, nice column Jesse. Makes you think “What coulda been???”
Cool article… How about Liddell silva the first time it got scraped. If that superfight would have happened Pride might have been saved.
…Great insight and great article..I for sure enjoyed reading it..& did my own anaylsis and it is really remarkable how fights, fighters, events, timeline..how cause and effect come into play..I for sure ( can’t speak for every1 )i get caught up in the now..and know that MMA fans at times can have short memories..lets not 4get Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz ( what did Tito learn from this?? ) for the UFC middle weight title..Wandalei vs Tito for the first LHW title ( a decision ) The Natural vs The Phenom part 1..Frankie Edgar vs Tyson Griffin..Frankie was suppose to be a stepping stone..now he is one of the UFC Lightweight contender..Sakuraba vs Renzo..Nick Diaz vs Robbie Lawler..Pat Militich vs. Carlos Newton..Newton vs. Hughes part1..Serra vs BJ Penn ( close decision ) ..Serra vs GSP..Guy M vs Tito part1..Wandalei vs Sakuraba part1..Wandalei vs Vitor..Saku vs Conan UFCJapan… it buggs me out..what if?? From Royce to Anderson Silva..from Rickson to Fedor..the fights..the stories..the badblood..the combacks..the upsets..this is what I love about MMA.
Definetly gets the mind rollin and thinking about other possibilities. Eventually we will see all and more
Cool read. How about Tito/Forrest for the honorable mention? Would Forrest or someone else gotten the next title shot? (and how would that have effected the best sellig payperview ever in UFC 66) Forrest would not have fought Jardine and lost, and probably wouldn’t have rematched Bonnar…
The if/only scenario that I can think about that happened this year is is/only Travis Lutter made weight; he would have beat Anderson Silva. Silva came into that fight not 100% and if Lutter made weight; the fight would have gone differently. Lutter would have been focused and much fresher, as opposed to draining all his energy trying to cut weight. Lutter would have finished Anderson Silva by ground and pound. Then Franklin would have beat Lutter for the belt.
Another fight, which was more recent, changed MMA in my opinion. When Cro cop fought Gonzaga, the referee stood the two of them up with a small amount of time left in the first round, however, Gonzaga was keeping busy pounding cro cop at the time, and the stand up wasn’t really needed. This would seem to be an advantage for cro cop. However, cro cop was woozy from eating elbows, and gonzaga knocked him out with a head kick with seconds remaining in the round. I wondered, if the ref hadn’t stood the fight up, would cro cop have weathered the storm on the ground, recovered between rounds, then won the fight standing in the second or third round? Who knows, things might have still played out in Gonzaga’s favor, but maybe, just maybe, cro cop could have won and earned a shot at couture’s belt.
Cool article. Reminds me of how “Hogan-Andre” changed the pro wrestling world. The other finish that was discussed for that match was Andre defeating Hogan, and Hogan turning heel (bad guy). That means no Hulkamania and who knows where pro wrestling would be.
[quote post=”2822″]The if/only scenario that I can think about that happened this year is is/only Travis Lutter made weight; he would have beat Anderson Silva. Silva came into that fight not 100% and if Lutter made weight; the fight would have gone differently. Lutter would have been focused and much fresher, as opposed to draining all his energy trying to cut weight. Lutter would have finished Anderson Silva by ground and pound. Then Franklin would have beat Lutter for the belt. [/quote]
Neither one them were 100%. Silva had a knee operation and Lutter was dehydrated as hell. Put them both at 100% and Silva would still have won. Lutter is retarded for not having a coach anyway
I got one:
How about Nick Diaz vs Diego Sanchez - the Main Event of TUF2 Finale. Even thought Deigo won, as always with Nick, it was a close fight. Any second in the entire 15 minutes Nick coulda have pulled off a submission victory, but unfortunately, it never happened. If he submitted Diego, Diaz would have never went on his 3 fight losing sreak; next losing to Joe Riggs and Sean Sherk - again, both by decision. Diaz is tough as nails, and has only been finished in one of his fights, and that was when he was like 15 years old.
This was Diego’s 2nd fight after winning TUF. Diego would not have become the ‘Nightmare’ we know him as today if Nick blemished that perfect record so early in his UFC career.
At that point of time, could a Diaz victory have lined him up for a title shot? I doubt it, but it sure could have led him right into a number one contender bout.
The UFC sure was promoting the hell out of the fight between these two, I mean it was the Main Event of the TUF 2 finale. I would say that the commercials from this event are almost definitely the reason that so many new fans hate Nick Diaz (not to mention his post fight interview as well, but that would have been different had he won). Could some time after this fight be when everything started to go down hill between Nick and the UFC? His very next fight was the one against Joe Riggs, where he later socked Riggs in his ugly mug at the hospital. I’m sure that that didn’t sit well with Dana and the UFC.
Bring Nick back!
[quote comment=”112110″]Cool article. Reminds me of how “Hogan-Andre” changed the pro wrestling world. The other finish that was discussed for that match was Andre defeating Hogan, and Hogan turning heel (bad guy). That means no Hulkamania and who knows where pro wrestling would be.[/quote]
good article and comparison, I was also thinking the hogan warrior match wrestlemania the two tops that nobody thought would ever clash being the best in their respected division and fan favourites. Maybe a little foreshadowing!! Fedor vs. Randy two legends collide.
[quote comment=”112107″]Another fight, which was more recent, changed MMA in my opinion. When Cro cop fought Gonzaga, the referee stood the two of them up with a small amount of time left in the first round, however, Gonzaga was keeping busy pounding cro cop at the time, and the stand up wasn’t really needed. This would seem to be an advantage for cro cop. However, cro cop was woozy from eating elbows, and gonzaga knocked him out with a head kick with seconds remaining in the round. I wondered, if the ref hadn’t stood the fight up, would cro cop have weathered the storm on the ground, recovered between rounds, then won the fight standing in the second or third round? Who knows, things might have still played out in Gonzaga’s favor, but maybe, just maybe, cro cop could have won and earned a shot at couture’s belt.[/quote]
my exact thought, this turned the heavyweight division up side down
Perhaps Rich Franklin vs. Evan Tanner at UFC 53. Franklin won the Middleweight in that fight and the opportunity to coach vs. Matt Hughes in TUF2. Franklin and Hughes didn’t fight because they were friends, but Tanner and Hughes would have. Who knows?
so true about the bobby southworth/stephan bonnar fight, without the bonnar/griffin war, who knows what would have happened…
I don’t really consider Diego/Koscheck 1 to be significant. In fact, that fight was as 1 sided as they come, and the judge who scored it for Kos was blind, retarded, ignorant of mma, or all 3.
How about the controversial decision in Serra vs Lytle at the TUF4 finally. The middleweight rankings would be completely different at this point had Lytle won like most people thought he did.
[quote post=”2822″]Cool article. Reminds me of how “Hogan-Andre” changed the pro wrestling world. The other finish that was discussed for that match was Andre defeating Hogan, and Hogan turning heel (bad guy). That means no Hulkamania and who knows where pro wrestling would be.
good article and comparison, I was also thinking the hogan warrior match wrestlemania the two tops that nobody thought would ever clash being the best in their respected division and fan favourites. Maybe a little foreshadowing!! Fedor vs. Randy two legends collide. [/quote]
Yeah, sure. But WRESTLING IS FAKE! And don’t let anyone tell ya any different! If you’d like to continue this disussion, please bring it to ImTooOldToStillWatchWrestling.com
And, No, that’s not a real site, so don’t go running to it. (I made it up!)
Just so I don’t appear to be a Negative Nancy, I’d also like to add a few of my own. I added 3 Pride fights, cause ufcmania already listed all the good ufc ones.
Mezger/Sakuraba: Mezger had the clear cut victory, but Pride wanted to add rounds to the fight after the fact. An outraged Shamrock got Mezger to quit, citing an unfair playing field. Had this drama not happened, Sakuraba/Gracie, one of the greatest fights in the history of mma, would not have happened. We would have seen Mezger vs Royce
Lil Nog/Shogun: Imagine if Nog had won the decision. The semis would have been Nog vs Silva, and Arona vs Overeem, given the allure of an Arona/Silva rematch, as well as Nog and Arona as teammates. We might be thinking back to Nog tearing through the gp, beating Henderson, Shogun, Silva, and Arona in the finals
Bustamante/Henderson 2: Very close split decision. Had Henderson lost, he would have been 3 out of his last 6, and coming off a loss to Misaki. Might never have been featured against Belfort, or Silva for that matter. We could be seeing Rampage/Silva 3 at ufc 75
Even Henderson/Silva 2. If Silva had won, we could have quite possibly have already seen Silva/Liddell 1. Dana still says that PRIDE f’d up the whole super fight when Silva lost to Henderson - no longer champ vs champ.
But then again, who believes everything that comes out of Dana’s mouth.
[quote comment=”112178″][quote post=”2822″]Cool article.
Yeah, sure. But WRESTLING IS FAKE! And don’t let anyone tell ya any different! If you’d like to continue this disussion, please bring it to ImTooOldToStillWatchWrestling.com
And, No, that’s not a real site, so don’t go running to it. (I made it up!)[/quote]
Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know wrestling was fake, which is why I was talking about a finish (ie. worked ending) and a storyline turn. And that match was a long time ago, who says I still watch pro wrestling now?
[quote comment=”112031″]You must be kidding. Penn-Pulver 1 might make it into my honorable mention fights too, but the rest … *yuck*. Fights that (almost) changed the MMA world are fights where giants clashed. The only fighter in your list who would be considered top of the foodchain (at one point in time at least) is Matt Hughes.[/quote]
you’re missng the point. he’s hinting that mma would not be where it is today with the absence of the aforementioned fights. the southworth/bonnar bout is very sharp - had southworth not lost the historical bout with griffin never would’ve happend. griffin/bonnar by far was the single most important match for the ufc. kinda like what moneymaker did for poker.
What if Sean Sherk tested positive after his fight with Kenny Florian? Would the lightweight division be where it is today without a charismatic and physical awe-inspiring champion? Would BJ Penn have dropped down to lightweight a lot sooner without the prospect of having to train like a madman to deal with the cardio and strength of Sherk?
[quote post=”2822″]Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know wrestling was fake, which is why I was talking about a finish (ie. worked ending) and a storyline turn. And that match was a long time ago, who says I still watch pro wrestling now? [/quote]
Oh, so a ‘worked ending’ has something to do with the UFC? This is way bigger news than that NBA referee, Donaghy that was trying to ‘work endings’ into the NBA!
[quote comment=”112188″]
Lil Nog/Shogun: Imagine if Nog had won the decision. The semis would have been Nog vs Silva, and Arona vs Overeem, given the allure of an Arona/Silva rematch, as well as Nog and Arona as teammates. We might be thinking back to Nog tearing through the gp, beating Henderson, Shogun, Silva, and Arona in the finals
[/quote]
Watched that again last night. Little Nog won that fight IMO.
[quote comment=”112213″][quote post=”2822″]Thanks for the tip. I didn’t know wrestling was fake, which is why I was talking about a finish (ie. worked ending) and a storyline turn. And that match was a long time ago, who says I still watch pro wrestling now? [/quote]
Oh, so a ‘worked ending’ has something to do with the UFC? This is way bigger news than that NBA referee, Donaghy that was trying to ‘work endings’ into the NBA![/quote]
It’s called an analogy. Go back to school and learn something.
[quote post=”2822″]Yeah, sure. But WRESTLING IS FAKE! And don’t let anyone tell ya any different! If you’d like to continue this disussion, please bring it to ImTooOldToStillWatchWrestling.com [/quote]
THANK YOU Violent Mike. Comparing MMA and professional wrestling is rediculous and must be stopped! How professional wrestling is even used in any sentence is beyond me - unless you are in the 6-13 demographic.
Great list Jesse, it is an interesting mental exercise.
PhilQNY mentioned one that I’d probably tack on to the list: Tito v. Wanderlei. At one point in the 3rd (I think it was the start of the 3rd, I’m not certain which round it was though) Wanderlei had Tito hurt, to the point where he tucked tail and ran away (literally). If Wanderlei had been able to land one more shot, or had Tito not ran away (if you never saw the fight, he literally turned around and ran away from Silva when he was in serious trouble), then there’s a good chance that he could have stopped Tito and won the fight (and the title).
Had Wanderlei won that fight, I’d assume that he would have stayed in the UFC–and obviously that shakes up a lot of things (e.g. we probably would have already seen a Liddell v. Silva fight, and probably at least one re-match; and Tito may not have ever been LHW champ)…
Forrest and Bonnar was indeed the biggest. So many Forrest Griffen fans.
And thank you too SaVaGe! Especially since you’re the only one on this whole mma site to have my back against Vince McMahon Jr the 5th.
[quote comment=”112125″][quote post=”2822″]The if/only scenario that I can think about that happened this year is is/only Travis Lutter made weight; he would have beat Anderson Silva. Silva came into that fight not 100% and if Lutter made weight; the fight would have gone differently. Lutter would have been focused and much fresher, as opposed to draining all his energy trying to cut weight. Lutter would have finished Anderson Silva by ground and pound. Then Franklin would have beat Lutter for the belt. [/quote]
Neither one them were 100%. Silva had a knee operation and Lutter was dehydrated as hell. Put them both at 100% and Silva would still have won. Lutter is retarded for not having a coach anyway[/quote]
I dont understand this position, and i have heard it elsewhere. If Lutter looked drained and sloppy at 186.5, doesnt it stand to reason that he only would have looked worse if he had managed to cut that last 1/2 pound? Or do you mean if he had been able to make weight without any problems then he would have won? Even if you meant the latter, it still doesnt really make sense to me…yeah, if he could have cut weight without almost killing himself to do it, maybe he would have won, but he couldnt. It is like saying he would have won if he had more stamina or was stronger…not a particularly meaningful statement. I am sure Matt Hughes could destroy the LW division if only he could make 155…but he cant, so what does it matter?
My comment above was meant to address the post by Red and not DJpullout’s response. Sorry for any confusion. I agree with what DJ says on this issue.
[quote comment=”112224″][quote comment=”112188″]
Lil Nog/Shogun: Imagine if Nog had won the decision. The semis would have been Nog vs Silva, and Arona vs Overeem, given the allure of an Arona/Silva rematch, as well as Nog and Arona as teammates. We might be thinking back to Nog tearing through the gp, beating Henderson, Shogun, Silva, and Arona in the finals
[/quote]
Watched that again last night. Little Nog won that fight IMO.[/quote]
I honestly thought he did after the fight, but that it was really close. I was watching it with a group of friends, and more thought Shogun won than Nog, so I wasn’t shocked when he got the nod. I’d love to see those 2 fight again
[quote comment=”112192″]Even Henderson/Silva 2. If Silva had won, we could have quite possibly have already seen Silva/Liddell 1. Dana still says that PRIDE f’d up the whole super fight when Silva lost to Henderson - no longer champ vs champ.
But then again, who believes everything that comes out of Dana’s mouth.[/quote]
The truth lies somewhere in the middle, like most cases. That fight was official called off even before Silva vs Cro Cop, but Dana saw that as a good excuse.
Basically, the ufc wanted Silva for 3 fights, and Pride wanted to lend him out for 1. The reason being had Silva won, that would have been a HUGE blow to the ufc. Having a champ from their biggest rival come in, KO Chuck, then leave was a huge risk. With a 3 fight deal the ufc could have tossed Babalu and Tito at Silva, or at least secure him for a year.
Pride, on the other hand, did not have much of a US presence. A loss from Silva wouldn’t have mattered as much, while a win would have been HUGE during a time they were attempting to tap the US demographic. However, a 3 fight deal would have taken their most marketable fighter out of the org for an entire year. With their financial troubles, and upcoming US shows, they couldn’t really afford to lose Silva for a year.
I’m not saying Silva would destroy Chuck, or that Dana or Pride are wrong. The risk of a 1 fight deal was too much for the ufc, and a 3 fight deal was too costly for Pride
[quote comment=”112246″]I dont understand this position, and i have heard it elsewhere. If Lutter looked drained and sloppy at 186.5, doesnt it stand to reason that he only would have looked worse if he had managed to cut that last 1/2 pound? Or do you mean if he had been able to make weight without any problems then he would have won? Even if you meant the latter, it still doesnt really make sense to me…yeah, if he could have cut weight without almost killing himself to do it, maybe he would have won, but he couldnt. It is like saying he would have won if he had more stamina or was stronger…not a particularly meaningful statement. I am sure Matt Hughes could destroy the LW division if only he could make 155…but he cant, so what does it matter?[/quote]
The argument isn’t that he had to lose so much, it is that he had to keep trying the day of the fight. The weigh ins are generally a day or 2 before the big show, so fighters have time to rehydrate, and gain back all that lost water weight. Lutter, after screwing himself by not making weight, had to come back and try to lose those extra pounds. So when the fight came around, he hadn’t had enough time to rehydrate, which put him in a weakened state. I don’t think he would have won, and think Silva’s injury played a part, but it definitely had an impact on him
[quote comment=”112262″][quote comment=”112246″]I dont understand this position, and i have heard it elsewhere. If Lutter looked drained and sloppy at 186.5, doesnt it stand to reason that he only would have looked worse if he had managed to cut that last 1/2 pound? Or do you mean if he had been able to make weight without any problems then he would have won? Even if you meant the latter, it still doesnt really make sense to me…yeah, if he could have cut weight without almost killing himself to do it, maybe he would have won, but he couldnt. It is like saying he would have won if he had more stamina or was stronger…not a particularly meaningful statement. I am sure Matt Hughes could destroy the LW division if only he could make 155…but he cant, so what does it matter?[/quote]
The argument isn’t that he had to lose so much, it is that he had to keep trying the day of the fight. The weigh ins are generally a day or 2 before the big show, so fighters have time to rehydrate, and gain back all that lost water weight. Lutter, after screwing himself by not making weight, had to come back and try to lose those extra pounds. So when the fight came around, he hadn’t had enough time to rehydrate, which put him in a weakened state. I don’t think he would have won, and think Silva’s injury played a part, but it definitely had an impact on him[/quote]
Ah. Now I understand what was meant by the comment that I was originally adressing, and that makes a lot of sense. Are you sure that he was weighed on two different days? From what i have read, it sounds like he weighed in twice in the same day, which was the day before the fight.
[quote comment=”112026″]Damn Jesse, another great write up. Gotta love your subtle lil cracks aswell.
Only fight you need to add to that list is the one that changed the UFC. Bonnar - Griffin, without this fight, the UFC would not be on top of Pride and owning the world of MMA right now. That fight to me changed MMA like the playstation changed video gaming, the mustang changed cars, and bill gates changed computers.[/quote]
Im an idiot… read the whole post. Sorry.
[quote comment=”112281″][quote comment=”112026″]Damn Jesse, another great write up. Gotta love your subtle lil cracks aswell.
Only fight you need to add to that list is the one that changed the UFC. Bonnar - Griffin, without this fight, the UFC would not be on top of Pride and owning the world of MMA right now. That fight to me changed MMA like the playstation changed video gaming, the mustang changed cars, and bill gates changed computers.[/quote]
Im an idiot… read the whole post. Sorry.[/quote]
lol, that was funny…I love self-ownage
I love when people just make stuff up to prove their point.
Lutter DID NOT weigh in over two days. You weigh-in once at the main weigh-in, and if you don’t make weight you have up to 120 minutes to cut it. In the IFL you have up to 3 hours. You DO NOT weigh in the next day. So Lutter could have cut 1.5lbs, and had the next 24 hours to rehydrate. He said that he was right on schedule to make weight and that three hours before the weight just stopped coming off.
That’s what happens when you’re in a professional sport without a professional team to help you. You will eventually f* up somewhere and get taught a lesson. That’s just Common Sense.
And it wasn’t a half pound. It was a 1.5lbs. For championship fights you have to make the weight dead on. Come on fellas…at least pretend like you know what you’re talking about.
[quote comment=”112303″]And it wasn’t a half pound. It was a 1.5lbs. For championship fights you have to make the weight dead on. Come on fellas…at least pretend like you know what you’re talking about.[/quote]
Thanks for the info, that is what i thought, although i could do without the elitist attitude. But your post bolsters my original point…To say that Lutter would have won if he could have easily made weight isnt a particularly meaningful statement.
Ortiz/W Silva is the TRUE fight that made MMA what it is today. After Tito won the belt, the mini-boom period of UFC started with the Tito Ortiz reign, and peaked with the Tito/K Shamrock initial match.
Silva promptly packed his bags, went to Pride, and became an icon. If Silva would’ve won this match, my guess is that we’d already have seen Silva/Liddell I, II, and III.
[quote comment=”112098″]Cool read. How about Tito/Forrest for the honorable mention? Would Forrest or someone else gotten the next title shot? (and how would that have effected the best sellig payperview ever in UFC 66) Forrest would not have fought Jardine and lost, and probably wouldn’t have rematched Bonnar…[/quote]
Yeah, wow how did we overlook that one. Tito sucks, a great character though.
[quote comment=”112125″][quote post=”2822″]The if/only scenario that I can think about that happened this year is is/only Travis Lutter made weight; he would have beat Anderson Silva. Silva came into that fight not 100% and if Lutter made weight; the fight would have gone differently. Lutter would have been focused and much fresher, as opposed to draining all his energy trying to cut weight. Lutter would have finished Anderson Silva by ground and pound. Then Franklin would have beat Lutter for the belt. [/quote]
Neither one them were 100%. Silva had a knee operation and Lutter was dehydrated as hell. Put them both at 100% and Silva would still have won. Lutter is retarded for not having a coach anyway[/quote]
travis lutter not cutting weight properly has nothing to do with silva’s bad knee. he would have had his injury either way but if lutter cut weight properly and was healthy and 100% percent he would have won.
[quote comment=”112235″]Great list Jesse, it is an interesting mental exercise.
PhilQNY mentioned one that I’d probably tack on to the list: Tito v. Wanderlei. At one point in the 3rd (I think it was the start of the 3rd, I’m not certain which round it was though) Wanderlei had Tito hurt, to the point where he tucked tail and ran away (literally). If Wanderlei had been able to land one more shot, or had Tito not ran away (if you never saw the fight, he literally turned around and ran away from Silva when he was in serious trouble), then there’s a good chance that he could have stopped Tito and won the fight (and the title).
Had Wanderlei won that fight, I’d assume that he would have stayed in the UFC–and obviously that shakes up a lot of things (e.g. we probably would have already seen a Liddell v. Silva fight, and probably at least one re-match; and Tito may not have ever been LHW champ)…[/quote]
very true, that’s a good one.
I would like to offer up an event instead of a fight that changed the face of the HW division in the UFC. Frank Mir’s motorcycle crash. Mir at the time of the accident was on top of the world and on top of the UFC HW divison. Tim Sylvia’s arm was broken in two and the title belt was safely around his waist. Then some person who was confused by the lights decided to run a red light at 30 mph t-boning Frank Mir on his motorbike sending him a reported 50 - 60 feet away from that very same bike, breaking his femor and very well could have ended his MMA career.
Had this had not have happened what would the make up of the UFC HW division be like today. Before his accident many people concidered Mir to be the BJ Penn of the heavy weight division. Would Mir have faced all the same opponents that Sylvia faced? Would we have see Mir vs Arlovski? If Mir won that fight would we have seen a Mir vs Sylvia II? And if you want to go past that if Mir was able to hold on to the HW title would we now be seeing Mir vs Couture? Mir vs Gonzaga? Mir vs Cro Cop?
I cant help but hoping that one day we will see the return of the old Frank Mir everyone knows that somewhere within himself he still has it. Its not like when he broke his femor it all went away or at least thats what I and I think every Frank Mir fan is hoping for.
[quote comment=”112285″][quote comment=”112281″][quote comment=”112026″]Damn Jesse, another great write up. Gotta love your subtle lil cracks aswell.
Only fight you need to add to that list is the one that changed the UFC. Bonnar - Griffin, without this fight, the UFC would not be on top of Pride and owning the world of MMA right now. That fight to me changed MMA like the playstation changed video gaming, the mustang changed cars, and bill gates changed computers.[/quote]
Im an idiot… read the whole post. Sorry.[/quote]
lol, that was funny…I love self-ownage[/quote]
Least Im direct about mine… *looks around*
Another fight that (almost) changed the world of MMA … Chuck vs. Randy 1.
If Randy lost that first fight against Chuck, he may be long retired by now, not as a legend, but as just another former champion. A Chuck vs. Tito 1 would have come much sooner, and Chuck’s first fight against Rampage may never have happened. This was also at a time when Chuck’s striking and takedown defense wasn’t as good as it is now, and Chuck probably would lose to Tito. Who knows where Chuck would be today if he lost to Tito?
Instead, Randy beat Chuck (standing and on the ground), then beat Tito (thanks to his superior wrestling skills), cementing his place as a legend in the UFC Hall of Fame. Randy is still not done yet, he is the UFC HW champion after beating a giant, still the best p4p wrestler in the sport, and the last person in all of MMA that you should ever count out.
Wanderlei Silva vs. Tito Ortiz at UFC 25.
Think that one over!
Top notch article. It’s why you stay at the top of my pull down bar.
Go Kenflo!
Didn’t read all of the replies, but I would have to say:
Henderson/Silva in Vegas for the 205 belt.
Has Silva won this fight a lot of things would be different right now. Probably Liddell - Silva (not Jackson) and very likely Henderson - A. Silva. With the ‘buyout’ soon after I think the outcome of that fight effected the most other matchups - especially ufc/pride matchups.
[quote comment=”112174″]How about the controversial decision in Serra vs Lytle at the TUF4 finally. The middleweight rankings would be completely different at this point had Lytle won like most people thought he did.[/quote]
true
[quote comment=”112381″]I would like to offer up an event instead of a fight that changed the face of the HW division in the UFC. Frank Mir’s motorcycle crash. Mir at the time of the accident was on top of the world and on top of the UFC HW divison. Tim Sylvia’s arm was broken in two and the title belt was safely around his waist. Then some person who was confused by the lights decided to run a red light at 30 mph t-boning Frank Mir on his motorbike sending him a reported 50 - 60 feet away from that very same bike, breaking his femor and very well could have ended his MMA career.
Had this had not have happened what would the make up of the UFC HW division be like today. Before his accident many people concidered Mir to be the BJ Penn of the heavy weight division. Would Mir have faced all the same opponents that Sylvia faced? Would we have see Mir vs Arlovski? If Mir won that fight would we have seen a Mir vs Sylvia II? And if you want to go past that if Mir was able to hold on to the HW title would we now be seeing Mir vs Couture? Mir vs Gonzaga? Mir vs Cro Cop?
I cant help but hoping that one day we will see the return of the old Frank Mir everyone knows that somewhere within himself he still has it. Its not like when he broke his femor it all went away or at least thats what I and I think every Frank Mir fan is hoping for.[/quote]
Yeah good post Who knows what could be different if Mir hadnt been in the accident. But i was discussing Mir not long ago and i guess the conclusion is Mir is/was very talented but lacks cardio and has even before the accident. So i say the accident deff slowed him down. and who knows what could have happened if it had not been. But with the CC’s and GG’s and AA’s cardio would have been a big factor in any of these fights which would have been bad For and unconditioned Mir. But nevertheless great post on the topic Steven.
[quote comment=”112260″][quote comment=”112192″]Even Henderson/Silva 2. If Silva had won, we could have quite possibly have already seen Silva/Liddell 1. Dana still says that PRIDE f’d up the whole super fight when Silva lost to Henderson - no longer champ vs champ.
But then again, who believes everything that comes out of Dana’s mouth.[/quote]
The truth lies somewhere in the middle, like most cases. That fight was official called off even before Silva vs Cro Cop, but Dana saw that as a good excuse.
Basically, the ufc wanted Silva for 3 fights, and Pride wanted to lend him out for 1. The reason being had Silva won, that would have been a HUGE blow to the ufc. Having a champ from their biggest rival come in, KO Chuck, then leave was a huge risk. With a 3 fight deal the ufc could have tossed Babalu and Tito at Silva, or at least secure him for a year.
Pride, on the other hand, did not have much of a US presence. A loss from Silva wouldn’t have mattered as much, while a win would have been HUGE during a time they were attempting to tap the US demographic. However, a 3 fight deal would have taken their most marketable fighter out of the org for an entire year. With their financial troubles, and upcoming US shows, they couldn’t really afford to lose Silva for a year.
I’m not saying Silva would destroy Chuck, or that Dana or Pride are wrong. The risk of a 1 fight deal was too much for the ufc, and a 3 fight deal was too costly for Pride[/quote]
Cool good info i was wondering about the details on exactly what happened. Good post.
[quote comment=”112247″]My comment above was meant to address the post by Red and not DJpullout’s response. Sorry for any confusion. I agree with what DJ says on this issue.[/quote]
But you made a very good point. This “what if” stuff can spin off into fantasy land pretty quick.
I wonder what would have happened if the referee hadn’t stopped the fight of Mir vs. Sylvia- would Sylvia’s arm be ruined- or would Sylvia have knocked out Mir?
Mir was a real badass. It’s kind of sad that we see this bloated man, a shadow of his former self. I don’t think he’ll get it back now but I hope I’m wrong.
Everyone can agree that the single most influential fighter to bring attention to the sport of the UFC AFTER its purchase by ZUFFA in 2001 is Chuck Liddell. It’s a close call between him a Tito Ortiz given Tito’s personality and impressive light heavyweight Champion belt defense run. Chuck is the only fighter to have been on Sports Illistrated, besides Roger Huerta who I still don’t know why he got on there. Chuck just has a something about him that people really like.
What if Chuck Liddell had beaten Quiton Rampage Jackson in Pride in 2003? There is a good chance that he wouldn’t have come to UFC if he didn’t have that lose. A man stays with what he know he can do, if he beat Rampage and the next guy, Chuck would know he can do Pride and may have stayed with them for the next four years instead of UFC.
After Chuck beat Tito, and definitly after Randy Couture twice, every fight he was in was the main event even when there were other title fights and big name fighters were on a card. Dana White is a promoting genius, and he molded Chuck Liddell into promotional ICON that had had a lure about him that would bring up the dead.
If Chuck did not come to the UFC, the UFC would not have doubled its status in the world during the last few years.